Have you ever thought about changing thesis labs? You are not alone. Changing labs may seem scary or impossible, but that’s because we hardly ever talk about it. The fact is, switching labs is more common than you think. In this article, we answer questions you may have about changing labs and share the perspectives of CAMB students who have switched labs to demystify the process. If you are unhappy in your current lab, it is possible to change labs and have a more positive and rewarding grad school experience.
Why have CAMB students switched labs?
There are many reasons why a student may change thesis labs. In the past, CAMB students have switched labs because:
Their PI was moving to a different university
The lab environment was hostile and/or toxic
Their PI was unsupportive, had unrealistic expectations, and/or ignored their ideas
There were significant issues with communication, a misalignment of goals for the student’s training, and/or a misalignment in how they approached the student’s project and science in general
The PI misrepresented themselves during the student’s rotation
Students have also switched labs because their PI asked them to leave, though it is far more common for the student to initiate the change in labs. However, not all students in those kinds of situations choose to change labs. Students who choose to stay in their current lab have done so because:
They were able to work through their issues with their PI with the help of a third party
They found people other than their PI, such as committee members or senior labmates, who were able to provide them with the guidance and mentorship they need
The timing did not work out
They did not think things would be any better in a different lab
What are the benefits of switching labs?
Many CAMB students who switch labs are happy with their decision. In switching labs, many students have found they have a better idea of what they are looking for in a mentor and lab, so they were able to find an environment that suited them better. Along those lines, students have also found that they obtained a better mentor-mentee relationship and a better support system as a result of changing labs. On a more personal level, many students feel that changing labs significantly improved their mental, emotional, and physical health and also improved their confidence in their abilities to make big decisions and to advocate for themselves. Being in an unsupportive or toxic environment can be emotionally draining, and it can change the way you feel about science, your abilities as a scientist, and your future in academia or science in general. It’s easy to blame yourself when there are problems, and you may even be receiving the message that you are to blame because you’re not working hard enough or you’re not smart enough, when the truth is that you are not being provided with the tools, support, and training you need to progress. Fortunately, many students who switch labs find they eventually regain their confidence and rediscover their passion for science, though some students find that their experiences permanently soured them on science.
While most students who switch labs consider their decision to be overall beneficial, they have also faced challenges. For example, some students have faced judgment from colleagues, friends, or family members for not sticking it out in their first lab or have been treated like they alone were responsible for the problems they faced in their previous lab. Additionally, even if the new lab is a better environment, it can still be difficult starting over again both emotionally and in terms of having to learn the workings of a new lab, in addition to potentially extending the duration of your PhD.
How does switching labs work?
Switching labs can take different forms depending on your situation. While there is no one-size-fits-all protocol for switching labs, there is a general path that many students follow. A common first step is to determine whether switching labs is the best course of action for you. This includes talking to your fellow CAMB students about their lab experiences and talking to trusted faculty to determine if your situation is more severe than the typical lows of grad school, as well as taking time to think about your goals and whether your current environment will help you achieve those goals. Once you have decided you would like to change labs, you first have to inform the CAMB chair (Dan Kessler) of your decision.
With Dan’s approval, the next step is to inform your current mentor of your decision to leave their lab. This can take multiple forms depending on your situation, and Dan and Craig Bassing are able to assist you with informing your PI. After informing your PI, you should officially finish up your work in your current lab and start reaching out to potential new PIs. Prior to joining a new lab, you are required to do an ~6-week transitional rotation in the lab. The transitional rotation will be coordinated by Dan, and it basically functions to help determine that this new lab and mentor are a good fit for you before you fully commit. Dan will check in with you and your new PI throughout the rotation to see how things are going. If either you or the PI feels things are not working out at any point, then the rotation can be terminated early and you will do a second transitional rotation with a different PI. (It helps to have a backup PI in mind in case the first rotation does not work out.) At the end of your transitional rotation, if you both feel positively about how things are going, then you will become an official thesis student in that lab.
How will switching labs affect my time to graduation?
Some current CAMB students who switched labs feel that switching labs ultimately has not affected their PhD timeline, while other students feel their change in labs has set them back somewhat. However, of the students who feel switching labs has prolonged their time to graduation, most agree that extending the duration of their PhD for a healthier, more positive environment was worth it. In choosing a new lab, many students have found that whether you have to completely start over on a brand new project or whether you pick up a project that has already been started by someone can make a big difference, so if you are worried about your timeline, it is important to be open with potential new PIs about your ideal timeline/goals and ask them about projects they have available for you to pick up and run with. The timing of when you switch labs can also influence how big of an impact your change in labs has on the duration of your PhD, but what matters most is that you are in a supportive environment.
How do I know if leaving my current lab is the right decision?
If you’ve tried communicating your concerns to your PI and they did not listen, or if you’ve involved a third party such as your program chair or thesis committee to work through issues and nothing has changed, then changing labs is probably a good decision. It’s also probably the right decision to change labs if you are unhappy and your current lab situation is starting to negatively affect your mental, emotional, or physical well-being. In deciding whether to leave your current lab, the most important thing is to trust yourself and what you’re feeling. If you feel like you need to switch labs, then you probably do.
How will changing labs affect my funding?
BGS has a fund set aside specifically for students switching labs, so you will continue to be funded through the process of finding a new lab. Once you’ve informed your current PI of your decision to leave and set an approximate last day in their lab, Dan will petition BGS for funding on your behalf. BGS will support you through the process of finding a new lab, including a 6-week transitional rotation prior to officially joining a lab. If you have an F31, you may be able to keep your funding depending on how similar your new project is to your previous project and how lenient your program officer is. The official NIH policy is that your new project should fall within the scope of the project you proposed in your grant application. To determine this, your program officer may ask you for a written summary of your new project, and they may also ask you for an explanation of why you switched mentors and how your new mentor/resources compare to your previous mentor/resources, among other things. If possible, you should wait to inform your program officer of your change in labs until you are settled in a new lab and know what you will be studying.
How does switching labs affect the prelim process?
Students who switch after passing their prelim do not have to repeat the prelim process in their new lab. For students who are looking to switch in their second year before their prelims, the situation is a bit more complex. Barring extreme exceptions, PhD students need to pass their prelim before the start of their third year, and combined degree students need to pass their prelim before the start of their fourth year. This means that your prelim can be delayed a few weeks if necessary. While everyone’s situation is different, students switching labs in the fall semester of their second year or early in the spring semester have typically taken their prelim on their new project in their new lab, and students who have switched later in the spring semester closer to the prelim have typically taken the prelim based on their work in the lab they are leaving. In the latter situation, Dan and Craig will ask your former mentor to remain actively involved in your prelim prep.
How should I go about finding a new thesis advisor?
A good first step is to think about what you want in a mentor and lab, and what you want to get out of your graduate school experience. Once you have a concrete idea of what you are looking for, you can narrow down labs that might be a good fit for you. If you had a positive experience in any of your other rotation labs and think they would be a good environment for you, then reaching out to that PI and seeing if they have the space and the funding for you is a good place to start. If you’re really passionate about the work you were doing in your previous lab, you can reach out to any PIs whose labs you collaborated with in your previous lab, your committee members, or other labs that do similar work and see if any of those PIs are taking new students. If you’re not sure where to start, it can be helpful to talk to multiple people, including your fellow CAMB students, CAMB leadership, your program chair, your committee members, and trusted faculty members.
Once you’ve identified some potential new PIs, it is important to thoroughly look into those PIs and their labs. Hopefully your time in your first lab has taught you a bit more about what you do and don’t like in a mentor, what you need from a mentor, the type of lab environment and culture you need, etc. that will allow you to better focus your questions in talking to prospective new mentors and their trainees. It is important to ask prospective new mentors about their expectations for grad students, their mentorship style, their funding, whether they have any available projects where the groundwork has already been laid out, and any other questions that are important to you. You should also talk to multiple lab members, and not just the lab members the PI recommends, about their experience in the lab and the PI’s mentorship from their point of view.
Dan and Craig want you to know that switching labs is possible and that the outcomes are often positive, so if you feel your needs are not being met in your current lab you shouldn’t hesitate to talk to them about what you are experiencing.
If you are thinking about switching labs there are resources available to you and plenty of people ready and willing to help you, including:
Your fellow CAMB students
Your thesis committee
Your program chair and vice chair
The Trainee Advocacy Alliance (TAA)
Dan Kessler (CAMB chair)
Craig Bassing (CAMB vice-chair)
Kelly Jordan-Sciutto (BGS director)
Statistics
26 CAMB students have switched labs in the last 5 years.
6 switched before their prelims
9 switched shortly after prelims
2 switched ~1 year after prelims
8 switched >1 year after prelims
1 student’s mentor left Penn
The average time to degree for these students who have already graduated is 5.59 years, which is comparable to the overall CAMB time to degree.
Acknowledgments: A massive thank you to the CAMB students who answered our surveys. Your insight was invaluable to this article, and we greatly appreciate you sharing your experiences with us. We would also like to thank Dan, Craig, and Meagan for their support of and help with this article. And to all CAMB students who are currently thinking about switching labs, please know that you are not alone and that you can always reach out to CAMB leadership and your fellow CAMB students for help.
Anonymous Perspectives on Switching Labs from CAMB Students
Q: Do you feel there were any downsides to switching labs? If so, what were they?
A: As I talk to more graduate students, I realized I am not the only one switching labs so I wear that as a badge of honor. Some students have even dropped out of PhD and/or MD programs entirely because of the toxic PI/lab...I think graduate students should speak up more and be honest about their lab experience, and you will realize many students are quite miserable because of the imbalanced power dynamics and the lack of resources to navigate through this difficult situation. We ended up blaming ourselves for these issues.
Q: Did your experiences in your former lab negatively impact the way you felt about science and/or the way you felt about yourself as a scientist ? If so, did your feelings change once you switched labs?
A: I forgot who I was and what I stood for in my old thesis lab. I became a shell of myself over the years of torture I endured. I would never wish this on anyone else. If you are in a bad situation, get out. In my old lab, sexist interactions and behaviors influenced how I felt about my gender, being yelled at influenced how I behaved, and not being allowed reasonable time off impacted my well being. Additionally, this experience has impacted my view of science overall…You deserve to be treated with respect, kindness, and compassion. My feelings about myself 100% changed after I switched labs…I became myself again and also grew into the professional I am today by switching thesis labs.
A: I was highly discouraged and considered dropping out because I could physically feel the overwhelming stress and imbalance of power amongst lab members. Additionally, the inability to feel like my ideas were heard and appreciated led me to feel like I wasn't a good researcher and would never be one. However, in my new lab, my ideas are welcomed and my new PI helps me to refine my ideas into tangible research projects and helped to design experiments, which has me progressing more quickly than before.
Q: What is one thing you wish someone would have told you when you were considering switching labs or before you switched labs? Anything else you would like to share?
A: This is YOUR training and YOUR career. If you are not getting what you need from your mentor, ask for it. If it's not a good mentor-mentee fit, this is your first sign to leave. If you are not getting what you need from additional mentors and lab members, keep advocating for it, but if you're not getting it this is your second sign to leave…find a new research environment that helps you thrive at being and becoming a better scientist.
A: Everyone is on their own path, the most important part of your graduate training is that you get what you need out of it, which is training and experience for your next step in your career. If you feel that you are not getting the training you need and deserve, which you often find out from discussing the opportunities you are receiving from your lab with your peers, then seriously consider moving on to another lab.
A: Make sure you feel completely comfortable before you decide to join the next lab… talk to people in the lab, especially students.
A: [Your relationship with your PI] is the most important relationship you are going to have in grad school and it will affect everything from your project success to your mental health. So many people focus on the project when choosing a lab, but a good style match with your PI and the lab is also extremely important, especially as the years go on.
A: First and foremost, there is no one right way to handle a lab switch, and it is highly contextual. Reach out to program chairs who will help you navigate the situation. Second, while it's really unfortunate I don't get to work on the topics I came to graduate school for, I was willing to make that sacrifice. The goal of your PhD is to learn to be a research expert, not subject matter expert, and you should be able to accomplish this in any lab… be open to exploring other fields for your graduate training whether it's during your rotations or when you switch. You can always go back to your topics of choice for your postdoc if you want to stay in academia.
Anonymous Perspectives on Switching Labs from CAMB Faculty
Q: Thank you for agreeing to speak with the CAMB student newsletter. I understand that you have had students both switch out of your lab and switch into your lab over the course of your time with CAMB. If you don’t mind my asking about the student who left your lab, why did the student leave your lab? Did you maintain any sort of relationship with the student after they left your lab?
A: So when the student joined my lab I wouldn’t say I had reservations about the student, but I had reservations about what I was personally capable of for mentoring them because I had my second child on the way. When the student joined the lab, I told them that I would need to see continual development of more and more independence because I wasn’t going to be around as much and the nature of the lab was that people were leaving, so they needed to be able to work on their own quicker than other people have in the past and they knew that when they joined the lab. Shortly after getting through the prelim, I took paternity leave, and it was hard for the student to continue to work and show productivity, so I initiated conversation with them that I did not think the environment was the best for them anymore and that finding another lab would be more suitable. Also, when they joined the lab, they were really interested in cancer, and they joined the lab because they heard that I was a good mentor and not because they were interested in the science of antigen receptor gene assembly. After their prelim, I could tell that they really weren’t interested in the science, and that was a problem on top of their mentor not being available. So, I just thought it would be better if they found another lab, and I informed them of who else I thought would be a good mentor, I wrote them a letter of recommendation, and I helped transfer their F31 to their new thesis lab. We kept a professional and civil relationship after they left my lab. When other students came to talk to me about joining my lab, I told them about this situation and that they should also reach out to this former student, who said positive things about my lab and me as a mentor so that these other students that joined my lab did so and said that it was great that someone who left actually said really positive things about me.
Q: In terms of having students switch into your lab, were you hesitant to take a student from another lab? What were your major concerns in taking a student from another lab?
A: The students that switched into my lab both ended up switching because their mentor was leaving town, and they did not want to leave the city. One student was very happy in their first lab, and the other was not so happy in their first lab. The one who was very happy in the mentor lab was doing very well, and the mentor was very positive about that student. The one who wasn’t happy wasn’t doing as well, and the mentor didn’t want the student to go with them anyway.
Prior to taking each student, I did my homework and talked to their program chair and thesis mentor in addition to talking to the student. Everyone gave a candid view of each student’s strengths and weaknesses, and I and my lab enjoyed talking to each student. For the first student, we did a BGS-funded trial rotation and after about 4 weeks we realized this would be a good fit and they ended up joining my lab and publishing two papers as part of their thesis. The second student who switched into my lab had been collaborating with us and was interested in the science, so it seemed like a natural transition to switch into my lab. The issue there was that I did not have a long-term interest for the project they had been collaborating on and I did not want to keep working on it because it was not funded, and I would not be able to get it funded. Nevertheless, their thesis ended up being on this project, leading to a nice story and paper. They each graduated within three years of joining my lab, making their total time in graduate school six years. They each secured nice academic postdocs after graduating, and they’re now both working in companies. One of the critical things with each student was making sure that they were a good fit with others in the lab, so that mini rotation is important. Although I knew what I was getting into in talking with them one-on-one several times, it was critical that they also got along well with everyone in the lab, which they each did.
It is, I find, stressful taking any student in the lab because you want to treat them like your kids, you want to support them and help them grow. You feel responsible for them, and I feel it’s an even greater responsibility when someone switches into your lab because you don’t have that real rotation experience and you know they’re switching in year 2 or 3 or 4 and you don’t want them to have to start from the beginning. So, for anyone moving into my lab, I wanted to make sure there was a solid thesis project or projects that they could pursue. I would never have someone switch into my lab and say oh well figure out what you want to do.
Unabridged Anonymous Survey Responses from the CAMB Students who switched labs
When did you switch labs?
Why did you decide to change labs?
I wasn’t receiving the mentorship I needed to move forward in my project. I also could not prioritize my own work over others’ either within lab or for collaborators. On a personal level, I also did not agree with my mentor’s approach to people management/relationships and which led to a lot of frustration. |
Toxic and cut-throat PI and members |
PI left UPenn and 2nd lab switch bc Toxic lab environment |
Altercation with lab member that made for a hostile work environment; intense workload with insufficient support, felt like my ideas or feelings about the research were ignored yet expected to conduct experiments on the basis of other's ideas, inability to be provided support on personal achievements such as grant applications. |
Hard to communicate efficiently with previous PI, previous PI had no useful insight into my project; discussed and designed experiments but always ending up not doing it because “it’s too expensive to buy antibodies”; forced me to do mouse experiment without IACUC protocol. |
I left in the March of my second year, two months before prelims. The PI intentionally presented themselves very differently during the rotation, and the graduate students were not totally forthcoming beforehand, most likely out of fear of retaliation. The PI ended up being extremely passive aggressive, an overt micromanager (no room to be independent and explore!), and a bad liar when confronted. Essentially, by the end of the Fall semester, I recognized that this was not the boss for me nor was I receiving the training I needed to push me to grow into a better scientist. |
My former PI moved to a different university, and several personal and professional development factors made staying at Penn the better option for me. |
I was dismissed from my thesis lab for not being productive enough in a workaholic toxic lab environment that lost funding for my project. I was too scared to change labs so late in my training and didn't know who to reach out to about the problems I was having. Even then, I was not comfortable reach out, as I was also concerned that my issues would be dismissed regardless of my suffering, as it is for many students in similar situations. It was the push I needed to start over in a new thesis lab. Most importantly, it was the voices around me from friends, family, and even colleagues that whispered into my ear that this would be akin to a mark on my transcript that could never be removed and would forever impact my career. I wish I hadn't listened to them, and instead advocated for proper treatment for myself despite the challenging transition. Making changes is not easy, but nothing good in life ever is. |
In your experience, what have been the benefits of switching labs?
The toxicity had severly impacted my mental and physical health |
Better lab environment |
The benefit has been a 180 in terms of my ability to drive my research while handling other responsibilities and having a healthly mental mindset. |
Not having to think twice when asking to buy reagents to perform experiments; feedback were fast. |
No PI is perfect, but Penn Medicine is a large community. There is always equivalently solid (an sometimes even better) research happening just down the hall but with normal PIs running those labs. Do the fourth rotation. A couple months doesn't set anyone behind |
Switching labs after having a better idea of future career aspirations makes it easier to ensure you have an advisor who is willing to support potentially alternative career path professional development opportunities. Additionally, having experienced multiple different work environments long-term can help you understand the environments that suit you best. Other benefits for switching labs to stay at Penn rather than moving to a different university/location include sociopolitical environment, maintaining local support networks, and staying involved with local professional development activities. |
The benefit of switching labs is that you get a chance to start over from scratch to utilize your problem solving and critical thinking skills and technical skills in a new environment where you can be more intentional about your training, goals, actions, and a more focused research project. You will also have another opportunity to ask really important questions like what funding is available for this project and for how long, what support is available in terms of your development in the lab (senior lab members is often key for this in your early PhD career), how time off is handled (especially if you were in a situation where you weren't allowed and discouraged from taking the bare minimum 2 weeks of vacation off, not including between Christmas and New Year's, that is the policy for BGS), and what other obligations your PI has so that you get the training you deserve without being neglected or left to figure out everything for yourself. These are all key questions students may be scared to ask at the beginning of their training, but are key to being able to complete your PhD and even more important to ask if you're transitioning into a new lab during your training. |
I have a better support system and a better relationship with my mentor. I also trust myself a little bit more making big decisions. |
Do you feel that changing labs has negatively impacted your time to graduation?
If I had joined a different new lab, potentially, but my mentor was supportive of my goals to graduate within a certain time frame and we came very close to achieving that. I also switched at the beginning of my third year so that made a big difference. |
Yes, in some ways, as I had to start a completely new project in the second lab |
Yes but I am much happier in my new lab |
I do not feel that changing labs at the time that I did will specifically prevent me from graduating in timely manner. |
Maybe not. The other student joined at the same time in my previous lab hasn’t graduated. |
Yes and no. Yes: People will assure you it doesn't slow you down, but I still constantly feel behind compared to where I could have been if I stayed. I had to start a new project on a new topic in a different field in a new lab after prelims. No: It's still important to keep in mind that it's not uncommon for people to switch to new projects after prelims (or later in their PhD training), even if they stayed in the same lab. You can still graduate "on time" if you are careful with your new lab and the new project you choose. |
Yes. Due to the stage at which I switched labs, I wasn't far enough along in a project to finish it out in a new lab, so I started from the beginning on a new project, which likely extended the length of my PhD, especially since my new project did not have a pre-established basis in the new lab. |
As a student who was forced into changing labs very late in my graduate school career (4th year), it did not significantly impact my time to graduation. Everyone is on their own path, the most important part of your graduate training is that you get what you need out of it, which is training and experience for your next step in your career. If you feel that you are not getting the training you need and deserve, which you often find out from discussing the opportunities you are receiving from you lab with your peers, then seriously consider moving on to another lab. This looks like discussing this with a trusted faculty, this could be your thesis committee members, your program chair, the head of BGS. It's important to discuss this with someone you trust, and know has your best intentions at heart. Ultimately you have 5 years of secured funding through the BGS program, so if you both agree that a change of lab is needed, the program will financially support you through a transitionary rotation and pending a "successful" rotation you will join a new lab. Again, keep in mind to discuss this with those who advocate for student's training and whom you trust. |
Do you feel there were any downsides to switching labs? If so, what were they?
Aside from covid starting right after, there weren’t many downsides for me. I anticipated that it would take more time to become familiar with the literature in my project (because you don’t do your prelim all over again, thank god) but that was nice because I could immediately focus on work instead of immediately putting a strain on the new mentorship relationship. I’ll still be graduating close to on time but I really couldn’t be happier. |
As I talk to more graduate students, I realized I am not the only one switching lab so I wear that as a badge of honor. Some students have even dropped out of PhD and/ or MD programs entirely because of the toxic PI/ lab. However, you tend to get judged by people who don't understand the reasons behind you switching lab. I think graduate students should speak up more and be honest about their lab experience, and you will realize many students are quite miserable because of the imbalanced power dynamics and the lack of resources to navigate through this difficult situation. We ended up blaming ourselves for these issues. |
Starting over and formalizing thesis project |
Adjusting, yet again, to a new environment with new lab members was challenging but the aim of switching labs is to find a better environment. I just had to get use to the new skills, ways of doing techniques, and other lab aspects. |
For me because I switched lab during COVID it was extremely hard to find a new lab; the process was very stressful particularly because of COVID. It was difficult to find a lab that studied the area I was focusing on. No one wants to take students during 2020. Have to switch to an area that I was not familiar with. |
Extending the length of the PhD is the primary downside, along with having to adjust to a different lab environment relatively quickly (a 6-week transitional rotation with the expectation of joining afterwards unless there is a major incompatability). |
Any change is going to be hard, especially the stigma that comes with changing thesis labs. All to often a traumatic event leads to a change of labs because trainees are abused, neglected, or traumatized and don't know how to advocate for themselves. This is further compounded by being stigmatized for changing thesis labs, as students are often labelled as hard to train, hard to manage, or difficult to deal with. However, many lab environments influence how students behave, where they are taught to be defensive, reactive, and scared to share ideas or speak up for what is equitable. Most trainees would be astonished to know that so many students change lab in their thesis years for so many different reasons, and it is totally normal. A large prestigious university is a place where oversight of student training can often be overlooked and under monitored. If the only time you're being asked about your training and satisfaction in a program is at the end of the program, there is clearly some room for improvement. |
Did you ever have to navigate any uncomfortable interactions with your former PI? If so, do you have any advice on how to handle those kinds of situations?
The conversation with my former PI could have gone better, but ultimately I was firm and said that the decision had already been made, and that I had consulted other mentors in the camb leadership. I thanked my mentor for what I had learned in lab and tried to be honest about my reasons for leaving without making it too personal. Definitely focus on the external issues - mentors won’t necessarily see a student leaving as a reason to change their mentorship style so even if you think being brutally honest about the internal issues will help, I feel it leads to them getting defensive/argumentative and assuming you lost interest in the project or even grad school. In my case I think it’s also important to know where you are going next before you have this conversation so you can immediately have support from your next lab. I got more mentorship from my new mentor in one conversation than I had in a year with my old mentor. It will feel like night and day. |
I reached out to my program chair and Dan Kessler to navigate through this difficult situation. Don't shy away from setting up office hours with Dan and use grad school resources to work out the situation if you feel unhappy and need guidance on lab situation. |
Awkward conversations but left shortly after that |
I did have to naviage numerous uncomfortable interactions, to the point where one felt almost petty. However, maintaining your professionalism and being careful of whom you discuss your previous lab experience with enabled me to overcome those obstacles and also helped us to maintain somewhat of a positive professional relationship. |
Involve third party. For me, I involved my thesis committee chai and she was extremely helpful. |
No. I pretend they don't exist in my field of vision and vice versa, whether it's at a department seminar or when we pass each other in the streets in the city. And they've wiped me from their lab website -- though if you dig really deep, there is one mention of me that they forgot to delete ;). My advice: be professional before you quit, when you quit, and after you quit. This is still a professional space regardless of how unprofessional the PI is. If you can, strategically place yourself in situations where the PI has no influence over your new life. For example, I've switched into a completely different field to just remove them out of my life. At the end of the day, they're just some professor in the department or program. Your new lab, your future committee, etc. is more important to your graduate career. |
The conversation about switching labs itself was a bit uncomfortable since I had been originally thinking I would move with the lab, before deciding that staying at Penn was the better option for me. It can be helpful to plan ahead of time for when you will initiate a potentially uncomfortable conversation and the key points you need to bring up to make sure you advocate for your best interests. |
Absolutely, and being constantly uncomfortable in lab is the first sign that something is wrong and that you should seriously consider leaving. Remember, it is time to stop thinking that we are stuck in our thesis lab for our entire training. In fact, you are not stuck there, you have the option to leave at any point, just as they can fire you at any point similar to any job. It is much easier to leave the lab with the communicated support of the program and within the 5 year guaranteed funding policy supported by BGS. Advice I would have to navigate these situations is to provide negative reinforcement or not react to inappropriate behavior. This can look like asking to stopping an unproductive conversation by asking to think about it and requesting to revisit it at another time. In situations where you are being mistreated verbally, there is nothing stopping you from walking away from the situation. These are only temporary solutions, and a conversation about these events must take place afterwards for any progress to be made. You will need to address the issues and evaluate if it is worth my time. Consider these questions when you're not sure if issues with your PI will resolve: Is this person willing to change their behavior? Is this person communicative about these uncomfortable moments or avoidant? Are they offering solutions or just causing more problems? Is the program able to intervene and support you? Are committee members being supportive or distancing themselves from the situation? Is your well being being impacted by these events? If there is not a resolution despite conversations with your committee, and program to remediate these issues in a reasonable timeframe, then you should consider your other options. There is always a choice to stay in the program, stay in your thesis lab, or find another research lab. It's important to remember to be prepared to be asked about it in the future, particularly if you are searching for a new lab in the program, just like you would be asked why you left a previous job. |
Did your experiences in your former lab negatively impact the way you felt about science and/or the way you felt about yourself as a scientist ? If so, did your feelings change once you switched labs?
A little bit, yes. But not necessarily because of my mentor, more because I felt after leaving that I had a bit of a target on my back - you know you have to make it work in the next lab. But that kind of motivation was also probably a good thing. I think the biggest negative impact of the former lab was really the lost time both in literal years but also the missed opportunity to develop with a better mentorship relationship. When I started over I didn’t feel like I had developed any more than when I got to grad school, and I think it’s partly because my responsibilities/projects were all over the place. In my new lab, I developed very quickly and with a lot of support from the other lab members as well as my PI. |
Definitely. Like many graduate students, I signed up for grad school because we genuinely love science and research. However, we quickly realized grad school is actually more than that. Apart from dealing with challenging and long hours of research (which we embrace and love), we have to deal with politics, imbalanced power dynamics, narcissism and dramas. These negatively affected our mental health, physical health, self confidence, and how we view the world/ science. |
Yes it took a while for me to be confident on the bench again and enjoy research |
Yes, I was highly discouraged and considered dropping out because I could physically feel the overwhelming stress and imbalance of power amongst lab members. Additionally, the inability to feel like my ideas were heard and appreciated led me to feel like I wasn't a good researcher and would never be one. However, in my new lab, |
my ideas are welcomed and my new PI helps me to refine my ideas into tangible research projects and helped to design experiments, which has me progressing more quickly than before. |
Yes. I was enthusiastic and passionate about science, now I think people do good science because of luck: because they met good people. ACADEMIA IS TOXIC. Did it change after switching lab: NO. I heard more stories during and after I switched lab (some students came for advice about switching lab), that made me felt even worse about academia. Although science does not equal academia, academia is a main part of it. |
I no longer have any desire to remain in academia. The power and the entire training system is too centralized onto one mentor, and this is a dynamic that can be too easily abused. |
Definitely, I forgot who I was and what I stood for in my old thesis lab. I became a shell of myself over the years of torture I endured. I would never wish this on anyone else. If you are in a bad situation, get out. In my old lab sexist interactions and behaviors influenced how I felt about my gender, being yelled at influenced how I behaved, and not being allowed reasonable time off impacted my well being. Additionally, this experience has impacted my view of science overall. I wonder how many negative experiences deterred scientists from continuing in their respective fields, and how many scientific discoveries have been lost due to poor treatment of one another. You deserve to be treated with respect, kindness, and compassion. My feelings about myself 100% changed after I switched labs. I advocated for myself, I set healthy boundaries around work-life, I never worked late unless it was my choice because I was passionate about something I was working on, I disagreed with scientific directions if there was no scientist evidence to pursue it, I could emotionally regulate to have more productive scientific discussions, and I developed into a strong young professional who could hold my own values and accountability for my choices. I became myself again and also grew into the professional I am today by switching thesis labs. |
A little bit, yes. But not necessarily because of my mentor, more because I felt after leaving that I had a bit of a target on my back - you know you have to make it work in the next lab. But that kind of motivation was also probably a good thing. I think the biggest negative impact of the former lab was really the lost time both in literal years but also the missed opportunity to develop with a better mentorship relationship. When I started over I didn’t feel like I had developed any more than when I got to grad school, and I think it’s partly because my responsibilities/projects were all over the place. In my new lab, I developed very quickly and with a lot of support from the other lab members as well as my PI. |
Definitely. Like many graduate students, I signed up for grad school because we genuinely love science and research. However, we quickly realized grad school is actually more than that. Apart from dealing with challenging and long hours of research (which we embrace and love), we have to deal with politics, imbalanced power dynamics, narcissism and dramas. These negatively affected our mental health, physical health, self confidence, and how we view the world/ science. |
Yes it took a while for me to be confident on the bench again and enjoy research |
Yes, I was highly discouraged and considered dropping out because I could physically feel the overwhelming stress and imbalance of power amongst lab members. Additionally, the inability to feel like my ideas were heard and appreciated led me to feel like I wasn't a good researcher and would never be one. However, in my new lab, my ideas are welcomed and my new PI helps me to refine my ideas into tangible research projects and helped to design experiments, which has me progressing more quickly than before. |
Yes. I was enthusiastic and passionate about science, now I think people do good science because of luck: because they met good people. ACADEMIA IS TOXIC. Did it change after switching lab: NO. I heard more stories during and after I switched lab (some students came for advice about switching lab), that made me felt even worse about academia. Although science does not equal academia, academia is a main part of it. |
I no longer have any desire to remain in academia. The power and the entire training system is too centralized onto one mentor, and this is a dynamic that can be too easily abused. |
Definitely, I forgot who I was and what I stood for in my old thesis lab. I became a shell of myself over the years of torture I endured. I would never wish this on anyone else. If you are in a bad situation, get out. In my old lab sexist interactions and behaviors influenced how I felt about my gender, being yelled at influenced how I behaved, and not being allowed reasonable time off impacted my well being. Additionally, this experience has impacted my view of science overall. I wonder how many negative experiences deterred scientists from continuing in their respective fields, and how many scientific discoveries have been lost due to poor treatment of one another. You deserve to be treated with respect, kindness, and compassion. My feelings about myself 100% changed after I switched labs. I advocated for myself, I set healthy boundaries around work-life, I never worked late unless it was my choice because I was passionate about something I was working on, I disagreed with scientific directions if there was no scientist evidence to pursue it, I could emotionally regulate to have more productive scientific discussions, and I developed into a strong young professional who could hold my own values and accountability for my choices. I became myself again and also grew into the professional I am today by switching thesis labs. |
What is one thing you wish someone would have told you when you were considering switching labs or before you switched labs?
I wish they would have told me it was normal and that it is important that I listen to myself and trust myself when I know something is off. My conversations with Dan and Craig were helpful in this respect but it took me a long time to get there because it felt taboo. |
Although office hours with school admin can be a good resource, it is MORE IMPORTANT to talk to the current grad students/ postdocs in the lab to gauge the mentorship style, lab culture, power dynamics. You'll be suprised at how helpful and honest people are with these questions. Also, talk to previous rotation students who did not join the lab. Ask them about their rotation experience and the reasons why they didn't join. |
Take your time when choosing a new lab and do not let them force you into a leave of absence |
Be careful who you discuss this matter with. This wasn't a problem with me because I tend to keep my problems personal, except for close friends and family, but I've seen how it can hurt other students and lead to gossip and unprofessional behavior, even amongst faculty. |
Slow is fast. Make sure you feel completely comfortable before you decide to join the next lab. Dan may say you may only do one rotation - if you cannot find a suitable lab with 3 rotations in the beginning, why would you think one is enough? Don’t rush. The other thing is do talk to people in the lab, especially students. |
It's important to prioritize yourself as a person before yourself as a grad student i.e. there may be personal and professional considerations that are more important than sticking with a lab situation in order to finish a project/degree sooner. |
This is YOUR training and YOUR career. If you are not getting what you need from your mentor, ask for it. If it's not a good mentor-mentee fit, this is your first sign to leave. If you are not getting what you need from additional mentors and lab members, keep advocating for it but if you're not getting it this is your second sign to leave. If you've run out of resources and can't find support in your current environment, this is the third strike, find a new research environment that helps you thrive at being and becoming a better scientist. Obviously, if you're within a year of being able to defend and your committee is on board, and you can tolerate what is going on, then obviously consider it. However, if deadlines keep being shifted back, reconsider. You can absolutely finish a dissertation worth of work in as little as 2 years, as I've seen many colleagues do. But, only if you're willing to put the time and effort in to work smarter not harder and work strategically. It will be very challenging, especially mentally, but you are smart, strong, and capable. |
Anything else you would like to share?
1.This is the most important relationship you are going to have in grad school and it will affect everything from your project success to your mental health. So many people focus on the project when choosing a lab, but a good style match with your PI and the lab is also extremely important especially as the years go on. This person will likely be your boss throughout a lot of big life events - it’ll be a lot easier if you actually like them (especially when they are being unreasonable, which they all are at some point) 2.I’ve talked to a lot of younger students about switching labs and try to help them evaluate whether these issues will change or not. In my experience (and hearing about others’) if you are already seriously considering leaving, you probably need to. Your mentor will not fundamentally change - seriously! No one wants to hear that, but it is true. Sometimes they aren’t even doing something wrong, it’s just a mismatch of styles. And if they are doing something wrong, you as a student should not be shouldering the burden of consistently pointing that out. The best advice I got from Craig is that you have enough things that will take up space in your mind in grad school, and your mentorship relationship can’t be one of them. One or two conversations to address issues that pop up is appropriate, but you can’t achieve a full overhaul of someone’s style and you shouldn’t try. Eventually, I had to |
tell myself that I could either stay and know I’ll be unhappy and frustrated or I could leave and have a chance at being a lot happier. |
I appreciate CAMB newsletter for doing this survey and bringing this issue to light. It has severely impacted more students that we would like to admit. It's important to let students who are considering switching lab know that they are not alone, and this is a very common yet under-reported issue. Sadly, toxic lab/ imbalanced dynamics have forced many passionate/ brilliant students to quit science altogether. |
We need strong support from our department chairs during the transition |
First and foremost, there is no one right way to handle a lab switch, and it is highly contextual. Reach out to program chairs who will help you navigate the situation. Second, while it's really unfortunate I don't get to work on the topics I came to graduate school for, I was willing to make that sacrifice. The goal of your PhD is to learn to be a research expert, not a topical or subject matter expert, and you should be able to accomplish this in any lab. Obviously, pick something you're still interested in, but don't be afraid to branch out a little, but be open to exploring other fields for your graduate training whether it's during your rotations or when you switch. You can always go back to your topics of choice for your postdoc if you want to stay in academia. |
Before you join any job you always interview and consider, is this where I want to be? Make sure at any stage of your training and career, you interview your entire lab and who you are interviewing with. Before that, identify your key values before starting a new role. A key thing to take notice is how a PI lives their life, they will often expect you to live a similar lifestyle. You can also ask what their expectations are of their trainees such as lab schedule, hours, child care obligations, PTO, communication style, and anything else important to you. A few red flags are not taking time off, not allowing lab members to take time off, receiving emails after hours or on the weekends and being expected to reply, assuming you will be working weekends without a discussion of job expectations, not discussing funding or grant progress reports or deadlines, unequally allowing certain lab members opportunities but not others, inability to dedicate time to all trainees, a general lack of interest in trainees overall wellbeing, and other unequitable or improper treatment. You can learn more about a lab from talking to the members and especially the trainees, but keep in mind it's important to discuss this outside of the lab environment (meet up elsewhere). Most importantly, learn who to go to when you are unwell, create a support network of trusted friends and student advocate faculty to support you during this transition, take advantage of resources offered to you such as counseling and primary care, and find out who to report incidences to in your department and program, when and if they happen. Even if they do nothing about your concerns and complaints, you always can. |
Unabridged Anonymous Survey Responses from the CAMB Students who considered switching labs but ultimately did not
When did you seriously consider switching labs?
Why did you consider changing labs?
I had/have an unsupportive PI who wouldn't respond to messages and offered little guidance, scientific or otherwise when we met either individually or in lab meeting. |
PI threw a temper tantrum when I had a short term (2 week) medical situation that just needed to heal. Downhill from there. Passive aggressive behavior and blaming us for things that either he did wrong or are out of everybody’s hand. He has an Extremely inefficient work ethic and everyone in lab knows he technically isn’t a good scientist but is pretending well enough. I unfortunately go into too much detail without identifying him. |
I started to lose faith in my PI's mentorship and scientific guidance. |
What made you decide to stay? Would you make a different choice now?
People in the lab took on the role of helping me. They've offered critiques on experimental design, scientific thinking, scientific writing, and my presentation skills. I think I can be successful in the lab with the lab members I have. |
I mean let’s be honest. PhD students are stuck in an abusive marriage with no way out. Who wants to start over in their 4th year. Also my PI’s behavior is normal for 80% of PIs in my field. I don’t have better choices. |
To be honest, I didn't feel like I had any other choice. Prelims were coming up and I didn't want to have to start over my thesis work. |
What is one thing you wish someone would have told you when you were considering switching labs?
When you have an absent PI, there is nothing you can lose from being direct in asking them what you want and need. |
I was told everything I need to know by friends. CAMB leadership is extremely useless and on the faculty side. Don’t be fooled. They don’t work for us or care about us. CAMB leadership will make you feel useless and pathetic. |
Anything else you would like to share?
I wish I had received more guidance in deciding on what labs I rotated in. |
All PI’s should undergo mandatory leadership training and therapy. It is unreal how unmedicated these people are. THERAPY! Don’t let your mental illness out on your students. |